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	<title>Comments on: Reviewing the past year of my youth ministry</title>
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	<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/</link>
	<description>Conversations among those passionate for teenagers.</description>
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		<title>By: Tim Schmoyer</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-139836</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Schmoyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-139836</guid>
		<description>@Brandon: The vision was first cast to me from Greg Stier who put the graph together. He laid out some of the theoretical groundwork and I took it and put feet to it in real-life ministry. We&#039;re both helping each other develop the vision for Deep &amp; Wide.

You can see his original take &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dare2share.org/deepandwide&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (although, a second revision will be coming out next month).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brandon: The vision was first cast to me from Greg Stier who put the graph together. He laid out some of the theoretical groundwork and I took it and put feet to it in real-life ministry. We&#8217;re both helping each other develop the vision for Deep &amp; Wide.</p>
<p>You can see his original take <a href="http://www.dare2share.org/deepandwide" rel="nofollow">here</a> (although, a second revision will be coming out next month).</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-139693</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-139693</guid>
		<description>Tim,

Did you and your team create that diagram/idea or did you adopt it and make it fit your program?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>Did you and your team create that diagram/idea or did you adopt it and make it fit your program?</p>
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		<title>By: Deep and Wide Student Ministry &#171; current</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136588</link>
		<dc:creator>Deep and Wide Student Ministry &#171; current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136588</guid>
		<description>[...] and Wide Student&#160;Ministry  Jump to Comments Tim, over at Life in Student Ministry, posted this graph and some explanation. Great [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and Wide Student&nbsp;Ministry  Jump to Comments Tim, over at Life in Student Ministry, posted this graph and some explanation. Great [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Schmoyer</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136254</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Schmoyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136254</guid>
		<description>@ jeremy z: Nah, we don&#039;t do &quot;youth worship services.&quot; I think that unintentionally communicates a misunderstanding of what church is and contributes to the 20-something dropout. I actually did a LIVE YM Talk on this. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.studentministry.org/2008/08/27/podcast-problems-with-youth-group-as-a-minichurch/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Listen to it here.&lt;/a&gt; Students and families are not only encouraged to attend church together, but we use teenagers in several key parts of our services and on Sunday mornings in general. I have a blog post coming up about that, actually. It&#039;s been queued in the drafts for a while now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jeremy z: Nah, we don&#8217;t do &#8220;youth worship services.&#8221; I think that unintentionally communicates a misunderstanding of what church is and contributes to the 20-something dropout. I actually did a LIVE YM Talk on this. <a href="http://www.studentministry.org/2008/08/27/podcast-problems-with-youth-group-as-a-minichurch/" rel="nofollow">Listen to it here.</a> Students and families are not only encouraged to attend church together, but we use teenagers in several key parts of our services and on Sunday mornings in general. I have a blog post coming up about that, actually. It&#8217;s been queued in the drafts for a while now.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy z</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136251</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136251</guid>
		<description>thanks tim.  

i meant after in the sense of pursuit, not after in the sense of completion.  basically are you pursuing the assimilation philosophy of ym?  

do you have a sunday service for youth (both jr high and high school)? or are they encouraged to attend church with their families?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks tim.  </p>
<p>i meant after in the sense of pursuit, not after in the sense of completion.  basically are you pursuing the assimilation philosophy of ym?  </p>
<p>do you have a sunday service for youth (both jr high and high school)? or are they encouraged to attend church with their families?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Schmoyer</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136247</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Schmoyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136247</guid>
		<description>@ jeremy z: Good questions, man! Each one could be a novel, but lemme hit &#039;em briefly.

1. I&#039;m not interested in pegging each student into a apathetic/interested/excited/passionate box. The graph of spiritual maturity over time is not a straight upward arrow. It&#039;s a jagged line, sometimes with growth spurts and then later with setbacks. Evaluation is difficult and not always helpful as a true indication of the work of your ministry versus the role of the Holy Spirit in spite of you (which is always the case, by the way). Generally speaking, I think we&#039;ll have a very visible evaluation of it if kids are actually changing their lives by applying the Word, that sense of excitement and passion builds, and especially when their unsaved friends start coming to faith in Christ. Can&#039;t get much more tangible than that.

2. Umm... never really asked them, actually. I don&#039;t use a lot, though, so I think I&#039;m safe.

3. You can find the 30 Core Questions in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://media.dare2share.org/pdf/deepandwidethesis.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Deep and Wide Thesis&lt;/a&gt;. I personally don&#039;t think it&#039;s a complete list, but it&#039;s a starting point anyway. We&#039;re combining some questions and digging deep into each one. (BTW, that thesis needs a LOT of revisions, so don&#039;t get too critical of it too quickly.)

We hit some world religions naturally when we discuss the deeper theology behind what we believe as opposed to the heresies that other religions have adopted, but no, we&#039;re not intentionally studying other religions. I honestly find it odd that youth groups do that, actually. Do your teens have such a firm grip and understanding of scripture that the best use of your teaching time with them is to study someone else? I understand it&#039;s helpful because of the world they live in, but I think lies are easier to dicifer when you have a rock solid grip on the Truth.

I&#039;m not giving them my denomination&#039;s doctrine -- I&#039;m giving them MY doctrine since mine is the only one that&#039;s right. lol! Totally kidding! I actually disagree with my denomination is several key areas (which is why I can never be licensed or ordained here), but I have total freedom to teach what I believe. Usually I play devils advocate for all positions and let the kids argue with me using their typical Sunday school answers, which is great for stretching their thinking and understanding, showing them that it&#039;s not all black and white.

4. No model of evangelism is beneficial or effective unless you and your teens actually USE it. I doesn&#039;t matter to me if we use Pray, Pursue, Persuade versus the 4 Spiritual Laws (what I grew up using) versus anything else. What&#039;s important is that you train them in &lt;em&gt;something&lt;/em&gt; just for the sake of having a confidence booster, and then make sure they USE it.

5. What do you mean, AFTER assimilating them into the church body? They already are assimilated. Hopefully that&#039;s a natural part of every church, not something that happens after they graduate because then it&#039;s too late.

And yes, the inter-generational aspect is becoming bigger because the YM is being more intentional about partnering with parents (a section of my report that I didn&#039;t include here).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jeremy z: Good questions, man! Each one could be a novel, but lemme hit &#8216;em briefly.</p>
<p>1. I&#8217;m not interested in pegging each student into a apathetic/interested/excited/passionate box. The graph of spiritual maturity over time is not a straight upward arrow. It&#8217;s a jagged line, sometimes with growth spurts and then later with setbacks. Evaluation is difficult and not always helpful as a true indication of the work of your ministry versus the role of the Holy Spirit in spite of you (which is always the case, by the way). Generally speaking, I think we&#8217;ll have a very visible evaluation of it if kids are actually changing their lives by applying the Word, that sense of excitement and passion builds, and especially when their unsaved friends start coming to faith in Christ. Can&#8217;t get much more tangible than that.</p>
<p>2. Umm&#8230; never really asked them, actually. I don&#8217;t use a lot, though, so I think I&#8217;m safe.</p>
<p>3. You can find the 30 Core Questions in the <a href="http://media.dare2share.org/pdf/deepandwidethesis.pdf" rel="nofollow">Deep and Wide Thesis</a>. I personally don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a complete list, but it&#8217;s a starting point anyway. We&#8217;re combining some questions and digging deep into each one. (BTW, that thesis needs a LOT of revisions, so don&#8217;t get too critical of it too quickly.)</p>
<p>We hit some world religions naturally when we discuss the deeper theology behind what we believe as opposed to the heresies that other religions have adopted, but no, we&#8217;re not intentionally studying other religions. I honestly find it odd that youth groups do that, actually. Do your teens have such a firm grip and understanding of scripture that the best use of your teaching time with them is to study someone else? I understand it&#8217;s helpful because of the world they live in, but I think lies are easier to dicifer when you have a rock solid grip on the Truth.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not giving them my denomination&#8217;s doctrine &#8212; I&#8217;m giving them MY doctrine since mine is the only one that&#8217;s right. lol! Totally kidding! I actually disagree with my denomination is several key areas (which is why I can never be licensed or ordained here), but I have total freedom to teach what I believe. Usually I play devils advocate for all positions and let the kids argue with me using their typical Sunday school answers, which is great for stretching their thinking and understanding, showing them that it&#8217;s not all black and white.</p>
<p>4. No model of evangelism is beneficial or effective unless you and your teens actually USE it. I doesn&#8217;t matter to me if we use Pray, Pursue, Persuade versus the 4 Spiritual Laws (what I grew up using) versus anything else. What&#8217;s important is that you train them in <em>something</em> just for the sake of having a confidence booster, and then make sure they USE it.</p>
<p>5. What do you mean, AFTER assimilating them into the church body? They already are assimilated. Hopefully that&#8217;s a natural part of every church, not something that happens after they graduate because then it&#8217;s too late.</p>
<p>And yes, the inter-generational aspect is becoming bigger because the YM is being more intentional about partnering with parents (a section of my report that I didn&#8217;t include here).</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Twombly</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136236</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Twombly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 01:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136236</guid>
		<description>@Tim in response to @Adam - great reply.  One size never fits all.  It&#039;s like going to Willow&#039;s youth conference and trying to do exactly what they do.  You&#039;ll just burn yourself out and end up with lackluster results.  Do the hard time by praying through what God has called YOU to do and then do it.  Anything short of that is letting God down and letting yourself down.  Not to mention the students that He has entrusted you with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tim in response to @Adam &#8211; great reply.  One size never fits all.  It&#8217;s like going to Willow&#8217;s youth conference and trying to do exactly what they do.  You&#8217;ll just burn yourself out and end up with lackluster results.  Do the hard time by praying through what God has called YOU to do and then do it.  Anything short of that is letting God down and letting yourself down.  Not to mention the students that He has entrusted you with.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy z</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136226</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 01:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136226</guid>
		<description>Tim,

I have a few questions/curiosities regarding your youth ministry contextual missional model.  

First, how are you going to measure or determine what kids are excited/interested/apathetic?  And how often will you assess? 
 
We all know that the adolescent spiritual development is messy.  An adolescent spiritual journey is like a roller coaster ride.  Their freshman and sophomore year&#039;s they are loving Jesus and their senior year they are distant from Jesus.
In my opinion, determining what kids are interested or what kids are apathetic is too subjective and actually very difficult to do.  It is like trying to pin down mercury.  

Second, do you find that your students find your Biblical acronyms helpful? 
For some odd reason, my students dislike acronyms.  They think they are cheesy and too basic and simple.  

Third, what are some of your core questions?  Are you exploring other world religions?  Are you giving them more of your denominational doctrine?  Or are you teaching them the many perspectives with certain systematic topics?  

Fourth, how beneficial has your evangelism model of:  Pray, Pursue, Persuade been?  What is the feedback of the students who have tried to persuade their friends about Christ and it didn&#039;t work?  

Lastly, does your YM missional model go after assimilating these students into the church body?  And are you doing activities that are more inter-generational?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>I have a few questions/curiosities regarding your youth ministry contextual missional model.  </p>
<p>First, how are you going to measure or determine what kids are excited/interested/apathetic?  And how often will you assess? </p>
<p>We all know that the adolescent spiritual development is messy.  An adolescent spiritual journey is like a roller coaster ride.  Their freshman and sophomore year&#8217;s they are loving Jesus and their senior year they are distant from Jesus.<br />
In my opinion, determining what kids are interested or what kids are apathetic is too subjective and actually very difficult to do.  It is like trying to pin down mercury.  </p>
<p>Second, do you find that your students find your Biblical acronyms helpful?<br />
For some odd reason, my students dislike acronyms.  They think they are cheesy and too basic and simple.  </p>
<p>Third, what are some of your core questions?  Are you exploring other world religions?  Are you giving them more of your denominational doctrine?  Or are you teaching them the many perspectives with certain systematic topics?  </p>
<p>Fourth, how beneficial has your evangelism model of:  Pray, Pursue, Persuade been?  What is the feedback of the students who have tried to persuade their friends about Christ and it didn&#8217;t work?  </p>
<p>Lastly, does your YM missional model go after assimilating these students into the church body?  And are you doing activities that are more inter-generational?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris S.</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136199</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136199</guid>
		<description>Tim, you are right. We need to deeply know what God&#039;s vision for our ministry is for the obvious reasons of His blessing &amp; growth of the Kingdom but also because we can&#039;t truly communicate someone elses vision.  Yeah, sometimes our vision matches someone else&#039;s and life is awhile lot easier, but more often we are called to work through this stuff on our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, you are right. We need to deeply know what God&#8217;s vision for our ministry is for the obvious reasons of His blessing &amp; growth of the Kingdom but also because we can&#8217;t truly communicate someone elses vision.  Yeah, sometimes our vision matches someone else&#8217;s and life is awhile lot easier, but more often we are called to work through this stuff on our own.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136196</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136196</guid>
		<description>Tim,
I agree with you. Youth workers do a tremendous disservice to their youth parents,and church when they rely on the latest fads or try to copy what the youth ministry down the street or across the country is doing. Just imagine what youth minstries around the country would look like if EVERY youth worker sought the Lord&#039;s vision for their ministry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,<br />
I agree with you. Youth workers do a tremendous disservice to their youth parents,and church when they rely on the latest fads or try to copy what the youth ministry down the street or across the country is doing. Just imagine what youth minstries around the country would look like if EVERY youth worker sought the Lord&#8217;s vision for their ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Schmoyer</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136189</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Schmoyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136189</guid>
		<description>@ Adam Lehman: You can steal this if you want, but you&#039;d be doing yourself a tremendous disservice by doing so. Seek the Lord for His vision for YOUR ministry. Otherwise, youth workers will always be jumping to the latest YM fad because they fail to learn that God&#039;s vision for one ministry can&#039;t be carbon copied to all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Adam Lehman: You can steal this if you want, but you&#8217;d be doing yourself a tremendous disservice by doing so. Seek the Lord for His vision for YOUR ministry. Otherwise, youth workers will always be jumping to the latest YM fad because they fail to learn that God&#8217;s vision for one ministry can&#8217;t be carbon copied to all.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Lehman</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136092</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Lehman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136092</guid>
		<description>Tim,
Great stuff. Consider your ideas stolen.
Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,<br />
Great stuff. Consider your ideas stolen.<br />
Adam</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Snook</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-135611</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Snook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-135611</guid>
		<description>Tim, that sounds fantastic!!  I love your SIMPLE mission, vision &amp; values.  I love your SIMPLE illustration/visual.  I love your disciplined review of EVERYTHING that happens in the Youth Ministry according to the Deep &amp; Wide principle.

I thought our youth min was fairly simple, but you&#039;ve inspired me to potentially simplify even more so that we can be as effective as possible in ministering to teenagers.

Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, that sounds fantastic!!  I love your SIMPLE mission, vision &amp; values.  I love your SIMPLE illustration/visual.  I love your disciplined review of EVERYTHING that happens in the Youth Ministry according to the Deep &amp; Wide principle.</p>
<p>I thought our youth min was fairly simple, but you&#8217;ve inspired me to potentially simplify even more so that we can be as effective as possible in ministering to teenagers.</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Education Vault</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-136271</link>
		<dc:creator>Education Vault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-136271</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;has come this past year. A Focused Vision This year our philosophy of ministry was greatly simplified. No more mission statement, purpose statement, vision statements, core values, strategies, etc. It was confusing for most people and vRead the rest ...&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a class="technorati-balloon" href="http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?url="><img src="http://static.technorati.com/images/bubble_h17.gif" class="technorati-balloon" alt="links from Technorati" style="border:0;" /></a>has come this past year. A Focused Vision This year our philosophy of ministry was greatly simplified. No more mission statement, purpose statement, vision statements, core values, strategies, etc. It was confusing for most people and vRead the rest &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By:  current</title>
		<link>http://www.studentministry.org/reviewing-the-past-year-of-my-youth-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-140704</link>
		<dc:creator> current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.studentministry.org/?p=1223#comment-140704</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;Tim, over atLife in Student Ministry, posted this graph and some explanation. Great stuff.&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a class="technorati-balloon" href="http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?url="><img src="http://static.technorati.com/images/bubble_h17.gif" class="technorati-balloon" alt="links from Technorati" style="border:0;" /></a>Tim, over atLife in Student Ministry, posted this graph and some explanation. Great stuff.</p>
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